This weekend, a group of supposed 19 MPH'ers decided to set a pace of 20+.  This is OK as long as you state the intention to do so, but we have a number of 19 MPH'ers who can just keep up at 19-19.5.  They burn themselves trying to stay up with you more aggressive types.

This has long been a problem with the 21'ers.

So my request is that if you want to go faster than the advertised pace, tell the ride leader at the start or at least when you decide that the stated group pace is "too slow".  That way we (the club) can efficiently and safely keep the folks in a properly paced group. 

Why bother?  1) A faster unannounced group starts burning out riders who came for the stated pace  2) It causes new folks to figure out that they can't trust the stated informtation, and 3) We ride leaders end up having to drop back and pick up the folks you blew off in your wake because they tried to keep up and couldn't, and so we end up sheparding them at 16-18 MPH.  Not fair to us, or to them.

Yes, the above all happended this last weekend, including the 4 flat tires and one equipment problem.  If you didn't know that and started out with the 19 long group, you were not riding as part of the group.

For those who stopped to help the folks with various problem, MANY THANKS for acting like a team, watching out for each other.

So if you want to go faster, just communicate that, take a map, and have a nice ride...

I remember this issue very well last year when I was riding in the A21 groups...many times, the speeds were in the 22-24 mph range on the flats, and not due to me pushing the pace. It was one of the reasons an A23 group was suggested...though if you can ride in an A23 group you can likely ride with the "H & N" group.

I'm not sure if this is being covered pre-ride, though I assume it is. If not it should be, and if it is, it should be "Stressed" before the ride starts.

My suggestion to the ride leaders is pick those out that are pushing the pace and politely suggest after a ride (especially since many don't read these forums) that the next level up may be a better group for them to ride in. I know last year after 3 rides in the A19's I moved to the A21's...knowing I was pushing the pace in the A19's, but had I not moved up, one of the group was going to suggest that I move up since it would fit my pace better.

The speeds are posted for a reason and if somebody really wants to ride fast there is always the "Hammer & Nails" group. If a rider can come out and pound us into submission in the "H & N" group you will likely be asked to start racing with us....if not...that's where the "Nail" portion comes into play :-D

Thanks for the feedback Mike. 

Oddly enough, this was one of the things I touched on in the blurb I wrote today for this next months VeloCity.  We need to remeber that we've got different ride type classifications now, mainly "Competitive" and "Tempo".  Ride leaders need to stress what they will be doing prior to setting out so that the entire group understands what the purpose of the ride is.  Riders who consistently push the pace in Tempo groups should be "encouraged" to move up to a faster group.

 

That being said, I'll try to remember to remind folks what's going on this coming Saturday as well. :)

Ron - thanks for being one of the "hammers" on Saturday in the H/N group.   Your fitness level has made some impressive gains this season.  The only good thing about the mechanicals in our group was it gave me a chance to catch up.  Guess I better learn not to pull at the front and try to catch you on the hills after taking 2 weeks off a bike!!!!

 

Needed to be said and very well said I might add Mike, thanks.

 

KRhea

The 19's are usually a pretty large number of riders, to where we need to be breaking them into 2-3 groups anyway, so maybe we should really start using those suffixes like"fitness" and "comp" that we talked about earlier. We could maybe have one or two fitness groups that really stick to the 19 mph pace, and another competitive group that will push the pace from time to time during the ride. I know there are some of us who occassionally like to push it and throw in some hot spots, but don't want to ride with the H&N group to do it because we'll get shelled off the back 5 miles into the ride and will be riding alone. We're getting a ton of riders on Saturday, so we should be able to form enough groups to satisfy everyone. We just need to really do a good job of communicating the intent of each group before we roll out, and all those riding need to be honest about what style of riding they're looking for so they can be placed in the appropriate group.

If I recall correctly, there were about 9 or 10 riders who left in the 21s, and 25-30 in the l9s. It became obvious early on that at least 1/3 of those, and as many as 1/2, who joined the 19s should have been with the 21s. Granted, it has never been a "true" 19, and probably never will be as you can't spend 75% of your time monitoring your speed through your bike computer. Generally, the 19s group, when it's filled with true 19s, rides between 18 and 21 on the flats which is fine, as almost everyone can hang together; breaking up on the climbs, sure, that's inevitable. But. It's when people who should be with the 21s but, for whatever reason, choose not to and instead roll out with the 19s that we have these problems, namely amping the pace up to 23-24, sometimes faster, on the flats, attacking out of the saddle on every roller and shattering the group, leaving the ride leaders with the hopeless and frustrating task of trying to get the stragglers (that is, those who are actually trying to adhere to the advertised pace) back on, which we do by the next regroup, only to have the whole process repeated anew once the ride resumes. i really don't know why those riders who can, and more importantly, WANT to ride 23-24 don't start out with the 21s in the first place. Other than the ego-gratification that goes with the big fish-small pond syndrome. It would be so much easier, and so much more enjoyable, if people voluntarily put themselves in the groups where they would end up riding the pace they intended to ride from the outset. I have no serious hope that this will ever happen, but it would be great if it did. Bob Bigwood still has the most astute, and accurate, observation: It's those members who don't race who want to turn every ride into a race. And what better way to do this with success guaranteed than to "drop down" a group.

Doug Rennie:

Other than the ego-gratification that goes with the big fish-small pond syndrome.

Bingo. * * * I know one thing we have said to speedsters in the past was "You want to go faster than the group? Fine - just take a map." But I was discussing this issue with a friend who was once the president of the Salem Bike Club, and he said that one way they made sure that people stayed in the right speed group was to have a ride leader who truly "led," as in stayed in front at all times, and co-leader who was more fluid in placement in the group, and NOT give anyone a map except the ride leaders. That way the only way not to get lost was to literally "follow the leader" - who would then keep the pace at the posted speed. Granted, I can see as many minuses as there are pluses to this approach, but it was interesting to see how another club dealt with what apparently is a common problem.

The other thing to remember is that this is the time of year when folks who had been riding in a group are becoming stronger, and trying to move up to the next group.  So we have 17's moving to the 19's to check out the differences and see if they can last, while some of the 19's are ready to move to the 21's. 

But it's hard to have been at the front of the pack, and move into a group where you have to worry about getting dropped.

Hence the need to consider starting more groups.  Note that means having more Ride Leader volunteers.  Nothing prevents someone from stepping up and saying "Hey, I want to lead a group of 20 MPH'ers today".....

Remember the club motto: "It's all about the ride".  So let's work together to help all have a safe and fun time out there!

I rode with Doug for most of last Saturday's ride and agree with his assessment.  I would also add that the group was a bit too large and we had several riders who appeared new to group riding (iPod in ears, hitting little downhills at 25+ but struggling to maintain 15 mph on the slightest uphill grade, refusing to get single file or allow riders to get single file after repeated calls of "CAR BACK!", etc.)  The pace started getting hot as soon as we hit Evergreen with several sections where the pack was hitting 24 mph and I was at the very back of that train with a visiting rider from California that I didn't want getting shelled since he didn't know the route. 

Since some folks wish to "race" right from the start, perhaps the ride leader(s) should recruit some help to employ some racing tactics to keep the group in check?  Getting two or three experienced hands up front to do a little blocking / soft pedaling could keep things calm for the first hour or so.  The first hour when legs are fresh is where most of the antics tend to happen.  We may also need to have ride leaders and other experienced members get more verbally aggressive.  I know that we try to foster a friendly environment but no one complains when the pace amps up and riders either respond (validating the effort) or get shelled.  In my opinion, this verbal toughness should also extend to safety aspects as well. (The aforementioned "CAR BACK!" situation)

 

One other thing that I'd like people to keep in mind.  It doesn't have to be the ride leader telling people to slow down.  The ride leaders are a finite resource, and more recently we've been getting more and more riders in our groups and have been short on group leaders.

I remember my first year riding with the club I was with a group that Marc Mazzocco was leading and the pace picked up from 21 to 24 out in the Laurelwood Store area.  Marc was obviously frustrated and was helping some of the riders who were struggling so I went up to the front of the group and told them if they wanted to do 25 they should have been riding with H&N's.  The riders sat up, apologized and the ride was calm from then on out.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, there is more than just the ride leaders voice available in any group.  If 90% of the group tells the other 10% to keep with the tempo or move to the next faster group, that 10% will either get the message and move up or get fed up and ride off.

I'd like to add another consideration into the mix. My wife and I almost always ride tandem with the Velo - either with the 21's or 19's - depending on how we feel - when the last big ride was.

Because of tandem dynamics, we're likely to go faster then the group down any hill, and momentium will keep us going a way above pace for a considerable distance. We can drop most of the 21's like this. However, when we come to an uphill, we're about as fast as the 17's.

This means that you'll see a tandem overtaking the pack on down hills and the flats after that. This is not an invitation to speed up the group. We just don't want to waste energy braking - let's face it, most of us don't have energy to burn. Tandem riders know they'll be caught rapidly an any reasonable hill, and it's expected. For the group, just let us go - you'll catch up.

We've certainly had experiences where the 21's have turned into the 25's.  There have been many occasions where we've gone back to try to pick folks up. Sometimes, they're just too tired to hang on the back, so we come in a long way behind.

We're not often with the group we start out with anyway - since we take twice an many bathroom stops as everybody else! :)

Following the line of Matt's observation I'll say that by not being part of the solution I was part of the problem.  This ride suffered from both of the two most common PV ride ailments, group speed and group size.  Not sure if one caused the other, but in my mind they're definitely related.  I laughed about it at the time, but the woman going the other way on Jackson School shouting that we were the reason motorist hate cyclists was hitting close to home.  Several times I was at the back watching the group take up the whole lane while cars piled up behind us.  Climbing that first hill on Cedar Canyon I literally apologized to a FEDEX driver who was stuck behind us.  My new license plates say share the road, and that works both ways.

Looking back I think we should have split the group because of it's size, with the variation in pace as a guide, similar to Mark's suggestion.  In knowing this and not acting on it, I regret being part of the problem.

I know exactly to whom Brad is referring. Same people almost every Saturday. Just HAVE to be in front and jump off from the group on every flat straightaway, usually igniting a bevy of chasers and then, wham, just like that the group is splintered into H/N wannabes and riders from whom 19-20 is about their limit, and the reason why they are in this group. I've tried everything from yelling to soft sell with some of these guys to zero avail. And, yes, as Brad points out, they also have a need to be at the very front at the foot of any climb, or for that matter, any moderate incline and quickly blow, leaving those behind to bellow "SLOWING" or swing out, sometimes with traffic right there, to get around them. Ideally, you want riders in every group to honor that group's dynamic. Move to the front if you must, but keep the tempo within, say. 2 mph of what the listed max is. No one is going to *** if the 19s have a few stretches in the 21 area. But as Brad pointed out, 24+ on Evergreen is definitely not honoring the group dynamic for the 19s. And, yeah, there was a visitor from NorCal riding with the 19s this weekend, so thanks to Brad for taking care of him. Some of us had to stop about 10 miles out to help someone with a crankset problem, so I wasn't there. Good thing Brad stepped up to make sure he got back okay. One final point: A couple of H/Ners, Bob Bigwood and Geoff Talbot, rode with the 19s a couple of weeks ago and both these guys, though far stronger riders than any of the "real " 19s, felt no need to show off and totally respected the ride structure, staying between the front and middle of the main pack for the entire route. Proof it CAN be done.

The A19/21's are a tough group because most people who ride in this group are fast enough to ride with anyone 90% of the time.   Unless mutually agreed upfront, I don’t understand why people would attack but as Bob said people use every ride as a race.  No big deal really as long as the ride leaders or stronger riders will step up and take control of the group.  It’s not that hard.  If you are a ride leader or just someone who recognizes that the pace is too fast, then jump up to the front and slow it down.  Let the guys off the front go.

And as Geoff said, please share the road with everyone! If you make 10 people happy you will be lucky if they tell 1 person, however if you piss off  just 1 person you are guaranteeing that atleast more 10 people will hear about it.  

Regardless of right and wrong, we are all vulnerable when riding on the road. Show some respect to everyone who uses it.